Curse

Xsiriss · Jun 19, 2009, 10:14 AM // 10:14

I mean sure the update was in the right direction, but they're stuck on support roles at the moment. I mean sure the new spirit flexibility is great but they're the only really viable thing at the moment, maybe they should make all channeling magic have armour penetration (for pve obviously) say 2 or 3% every level of spawning power.

And as for paras, they're still stuck in support roles too. Everyone knows a ranger or warrior can use a spear better than them...

Good changes so far but I think more is needed, especially for para's.

Toxic OnyX · Jun 19, 2009, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Rit's are support by the nature of the profession, even when dealing damage it is still more backline than mid, but they are one of the truly unique professions which I applaud a-net for bringing to us.

Para's are a mixed profession, r & w only use spears better because of IAS in their primaries, but that is more a-nets fault for the way they killed IAS for paras, a par with a similar IAS & IMS in its primary would easily outstrip either one (dammit I miss paraway)

I think it is a good start from a-net but they still need to do more with a para to make more viable overall

MagmaRed · Jun 19, 2009, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Its fine you don't enjoy playing a support character, but that doesn't mean ALL classes should be about damage. And if you want to make a suggestion, you missed Sardelac, as this is Riverside.

And adding armor penetration is not a good way of 'fixing' the problem in my opinion. Especially if you make it 2% you could end up with 32% Armor Penetration if you wanted, and that is if you use the lowest of what you suggested. Toss in 3% and you get up to 48%.

Oh, and Paragons not as good as Warrior or Ranger with spears because of IAS in the primary? Sorry, I didn't realize Aggressive Refrain was a bad skill. Permanent upkeep with little to struggle with, and 33% IAS must be bad if Lightning Reflexes is a better option.

Symeon · Jun 19, 2009, 10:42 AM // 10:42

The only thing that's really changed is that Rits can now cast their useless spirits before the battle is over. They're still useless.

Most of Channeling Magic is just like Air Magic - it's for single target spiking. No reason to use it in PvE. Communing (i.e. spirit spam) is inferior to PvE skills like SY for damage reduction, and offensive spirits are just bad. Restoration is only good when used by a necro with infinite energy. Spawning Power's effects are still not really worthwhile.

What they really ought to do is make weapon spells (including Splinter) practically unusable by other professions. One possibility would be to increase the base cost of all weapon spells, and then each rank of Spawning Power decreases the cost. The effects of all weapon spells could also be buffed in PvE. Duration isn't really the issue here. Splinter for example, would be just as effective even if it only lasted 5 seconds. With longer durations weapon spells are just more likely to be replaced by others before they end.

As for paragons, the Motivation line could really use some buffs. If SY is heavily nerfed they will need more all-round improvements so that people don't stop using them altogether.

Abedeus · Jun 19, 2009, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symeon

The only thing that's really changed is that Rits can now cast their useless spirits before the battle is over. They're still useless.

Except that they are 4 levels higher now. This means more damage and longer life expectacy.

Edge Igneas · Jun 19, 2009, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Only support?

Did you even try the changes? I would actually use spawning power now, its no drag to make spirits. I think these are very nice changes, I am using spirits in PvE, maybe later I will even bring them to PvP. The problem before was the fact that no one used spawning power even if the inherit effect was useful, it was because spirits were too much work to animate, and the effect wasn't always great.

Racthoh · Jun 19, 2009, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Everyone knows a ranger or warrior can use a spear better than them...

I was unaware Warriors and Rangers could get 14 Spear Mastery and also use Aggressive Refrain.

dusanyu · Jun 19, 2009, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Last time i checked paragon was a Support Class

Keira Nightgale · Jun 19, 2009, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Except that they are 4 levels higher now. This means more damage and longer life expectacy.

Take that TnTF and SY, with 4 skills and a huge attribute investment we can now do 1/4 of what a paragon can nochalantly do with 2 skills. The joy!

/sarcasm

Shayne Hawke · Jun 19, 2009, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Maybe because they're support classes?

Xsiriss · Jun 19, 2009, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Its fine you don't enjoy playing a support character,blah blah.

AI is retarded which makes h/h a pain, and don't go all 'join other players etc.' because most of them are just as bad. All other classes have capabilities beyond support but can do a fine job of support when needed. Lets see d-slash+SY, earth warder/b-surge, standard monk prot (hell reversal of damage,judge's intervention and roj make smiting an alright support line), rangers can take SY easily as can sins, whilst aoe interupt through tease,cry of frustration and cry of pain make mesmers a good shutdown support.

Warriors and rangers are better than paragons at using spears because of their primary attribute not IAS', is that not obvious? 14% armour penetration as well as adrenaline boosts if you want to(lions comfort,FGJ) for warrior and rangers can the energy skills, whilst having never rampage alone up in pve=free win.

FoxBat · Jun 19, 2009, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Spirit spam heroes are now pretty close to minion masters, in terms of decent random damage and punching bags. Combine both for complete absurdness.

Racthoh · Jun 20, 2009, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Warriors and rangers are better than paragons at using spears because of their primary attribute not IAS', is that not obvious? 14% armour penetration as well as adrenaline boosts if you want to(lions comfort,FGJ) for warrior and rangers can the energy skills, whilst having never rampage alone up in pve=free win.

Strength's armor penetration only triggers on attack skills and adds a few points of damage at best to the base damage. Simply having 14 Spear Mastery over 12 is going to add a few points of damage to every single attack and additional +damage onto the attack skills.

Lion's Comfort is a heal, not an adrenaline boost. Being an adrenaline skill it takes a point of adrenaline away from every other skill and since it has a one second activation time plus the after cast that's another point of adrenaline that could've been gained through attacking, not to mention the damage lost because you stopped to use Lion's Comfort. Gaining one adrenaline overall in the process if you have 13+ strength is nothing special at all. "For Great Justice!" can just as easily be used on a P/W as it can on a W/P.

Aggressive Refrain is a one time 25 energy use, Never Rampage Alone is a repeated 15 energy (minus Expertise) every 20 seconds and requires you to use Charm/Comfort Pet as well hogging two more skill slots.

Yelling @ Cats · Jun 20, 2009, 07:52 AM // 07:52

You are pissed that support classes are still mostly support?

Are you retarded? This is like me bitching about warriors because they are still mostly melee.

Shadowmere · Jun 20, 2009, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Spirit spam heroes are now pretty close to minion masters, in terms of decent random damage and punching bags. Combine both for complete absurdness.

this, summoned armies are ftw

And also, I don't quite understand the point of the OP, if the classes didn't interest you before and don't interest you now why do you feel like you "have" to make one?

It really sounds like you don't like playing the support role, so here's a simple solution...don't

Yelling @ Cats · Jun 20, 2009, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmere

And also, I don't quite understand the point of the OP, if the classes didn't interest you before and don't interest you now why do you feel like you "have" to make one?

It really sounds like you don't like playing the support role, so here's a simple solution...don't

And ffs, don't make one and try to be something that it's not. I want to shoot myself everytime I see a Para with 7 attack skills and rebirth.

iToasterHD · Jun 21, 2009, 07:05 PM // 19:05

A lot of you are being very dramatic and over zealous. That being said, what all of you are trying to say is, nevertheless, true. Ritualists and Paragons are support characters and will not be able to compete with an Elementalist in damage, or a Monk in healing.

However, instead of yelling at the OP, keep in mind it is hard for some people to view support characters as being helpful and powerful (myself included). In stories, movies and most video games (first person shooters) the main character, you, does everything. You are the hero killing the enemies, completing the goals. So when you enter GW where it is team based, you get this feeling of being a sidekick. The guy that dies in episode 5, expendable. I have struggled with this a lot in Guild Wars.

In games like Team Fortress 2, where it is team based, you still either heal or kill. Each character is skilled at killing, just in different ways, so you feel helpful. In GW, you are not always killing. Sometimes you are just supporting through minor damage, and this can be uncomfortable for most. The OP, and myself included are trying to see things in Black and White. Either Heal, or kill. There is no in between, no gray area.

In reality, everyone is a support character. Ele's do damage, but left alone quickly die. Warriors have armor, but can't kill huge numbers. Monks can heal, but don't do any damage. Each character is meant to play off another, creating a balance. Some character are further on the either end of the seesaw, while others fit some where in the middle, tweaking the balance. Ritualists and Paragons are in between. They tweak the seesaw to be perfectly balance, rather then only slightly.

Hurray for psychology!

Longasc · Jun 21, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

The thing is:

PvP Ritualists did not get boosted, non-primary weapon skill users were hit by the Spawning Power buff. But also Ritualists: Now they need Spawning Power to get their spells up to the former duration and cannot spend the points elsewhere.

PvE introduced a gimmick role: SoS spirit spam.

Paragons got a load of PvE buffs, but ... people will still ask for a SY+TNTF Paragon. Maybe with the now buffed GFTE as well.
What use has "Stand Your Ground" if you can have +100 AL for adrenaline, which also generates energy for TNTF and other skills?

But that was it, nothing changed for Paragons despite multiple skill changes.

the_jos · Jun 22, 2009, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by iToasterHD

However, instead of yelling at the OP, keep in mind it is hard for some people to view support characters as being helpful and powerful (myself included). In stories, movies and most video games (first person shooters) the main character, you, does everything. You are the hero killing the enemies, completing the goals. So when you enter GW where it is team based, you get this feeling of being a sidekick. The guy that dies in episode 5, expendable. I have struggled with this a lot in Guild Wars.

Just compare it to football, rugby or any other kind of team sports.
There are offensive players, defensive players and many times some kind of mid-line.
All this to make sure the team achieves the goal.

You mention movies and stories. Take away all people besides the main hero.
Would be boring.
Even in a movie like 'I am legend' there is some interaction with other people/creatures.
Or take LotR (movie/book). It's not about one single hero doing everything.
It's several people doing different things that all help and make the story.
Going back in time, I'm currently reading Milton's Paradise Lost (old English sucks when you ain't a native reader btw). Who's the hero in that poem?
All the old kings and other heroes from history? Part of a larger group of (mainly) men. People who enabled them to become heroes. Some might even have been more powerfull than the hero but accepted the role in the shadow.

It's easy to underestimate the value or power of support characters.
I played Urgoz's HM yesterday with 2 guildies and a bunch of heroes.
Used only casters in the team. Sure, it took a while but we used no cons except some DP removers. Part of our long playing time was I had to to cook dinner and guildies taking care of their baby shortly after that (that's also the reason we didn't take anyone else).
Just because some classes are support doesn't mean they can't do stuff.
It's only that certain other classes are more efficient at certain roles.
We just made sure our team was up to the task.
Heroes? Nah, just decent team work.

Ensign · Jun 24, 2009, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by iToasterHD

That being said, what all of you are trying to say is, nevertheless, true. Ritualists and Paragons are support characters and will not be able to compete with an Elementalist in damage, or a Monk in healing.

You meant compete with an Assassin in damage or an Elementalist in healing, right?

Yeah, classes are weird now.

The spirit buffs are going to be a big boon for the "wall of garbage" hero builds that do so well in most of PvE. Hero Paragons are definitely the best heroes you can take outside of wall of garbage heroes now, if you feel the need to put that down for whatever reason.

Player Paragons probably won't change anything, and player Ritualists...well...have you looked at the Ritualist skill list recently? I don't think the class has a single good skill left.